Correct Input Gain

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Correct Input Gain

Postby tzurby » Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:08 pm

Dear IK Multimedia.

I came across the input gain problem of Amplitube 5. Cf. here: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... t.2491757/
Ans here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29580&hilit=gain+Input+Gain+List

It is pretty complicated, and I do not want to spend hours to find out what is the correct input gain for all the amp models you are offering. (I did not read everything on that issue. I want to play guitar...) Also, what I find, it seems to me, is quite a bit of guess work.

I expect IK Multimedia to take this problem seriously and provide us users with a solution, especially when using, like me, IK Multimedia's own interface Axe I/O.

There should be a clear and easy description how to set the gain properly.

For all the users. Please answer to this post with a simple Yes!
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby vinbinwin » Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:04 pm

Yes!

If you watch the YouTube videos from Ed S and Rhett Shull, you will get an understanding of why this is important.

Ed S states that most guitar plugin companies have provided the information.

He also say that he has been trying to get the specific values for amp models in AmpliTube 5 for months, but IKmultimedia refuse to provide the information.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby tzurby » Mon Jan 22, 2024 1:52 pm

Thanks. Same here: https://youtu.be/qKxZkNa2A7o?t=182
"The only outlier (not providing information for correct gain) I have found has been IK Multimedia"...

I do not want to go through all this.

I think, IK Multimedia needs some more, and severe, pressure from its customers. That's the reason for my post. For them, it is just a snap of the fingers to gather these information and to offere them to their customers. Not to do so is neglect of very reasonable customer's concerns.

I am quite annoyed. And I think about switching to another amp modelling software. Some amps sound pretty good, but most, to my ears, have an unpleasant harshness to them. Maybe because of the gain is too high? But what is the correct gain? It is too much fishing in the dark.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby rulerofitall » Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:30 pm

I think the issue is compounded as the IK Tonex eco system approach is unique.
Having a stand alone app, plug in, amp capture and pedal eco system creates more points of failure for gain staging.
Add to that user created captures where IK has no control over how people gain stage and it becomes even harder.
The standard advice if turn up your input gain to just below clipping isn’t, in my view, sufficient for a system with this many variables.

IK could look into this and give some more detailed guidance but it maybe too late now , advice to radically change things coming months later may just alienate some users .

Personally I go for the approach used by Jason Sadites, audio interface gain set at lowest possible and then if I need it use the gain in the amp model. This has always made sense to me and something I used to do with my Boss GT1000.

It’s also interesting that very recently this approach has caught in with other plug ins as seen in recent videos by John Cordy and Rhett Schull.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby vinbinwin » Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:04 pm

rulerofitall wrote:I think the issue is compounded as the IK Tonex eco system approach is unique.
Having a stand alone app, plug in, amp capture and pedal eco system creates more points of failure for gain staging.
Add to that user created captures where IK has no control over how people gain stage and it becomes even harder.
The standard advice if turn up your input gain to just below clipping isn’t, in my view, sufficient for a system with this many variables.

IK could look into this and give some more detailed guidance but it maybe too late now , advice to radically change things coming months later may just alienate some users .

Personally I go for the approach used by Jason Sadites, audio interface gain set at lowest possible and then if I need it use the gain in the amp model. This has always made sense to me and something I used to do with my Boss GT1000.

It’s also interesting that very recently this approach has caught in with other plug ins as seen in recent videos by John Cordy and Rhett Schull.




IKmultimedia could provide the information for their AmpliTube and Tonex amp models.

At the moment they won’t even acknowledge anyone asking for that information.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby rulerofitall » Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:23 pm

vinbinwin wrote:
rulerofitall wrote:I think the issue is compounded as the IK Tonex eco system approach is unique.
Having a stand alone app, plug in, amp capture and pedal eco system creates more points of failure for gain staging.
Add to that user created captures where IK has no control over how people gain stage and it becomes even harder.
The standard advice if turn up your input gain to just below clipping isn’t, in my view, sufficient for a system with this many variables.

IK could look into this and give some more detailed guidance but it maybe too late now , advice to radically change things coming months later may just alienate some users .

Personally I go for the approach used by Jason Sadites, audio interface gain set at lowest possible and then if I need it use the gain in the amp model. This has always made sense to me and something I used to do with my Boss GT1000.

It’s also interesting that very recently this approach has caught in with other plug ins as seen in recent videos by John Cordy and Rhett Schull.




IKmultimedia could provide the information for their AmpliTube and Tonex amp models.

At the moment they won’t even acknowledge anyone asking for that information.



I agree, they should.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby rstubes » Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:12 am

100% agree. Having the interface gain too high is like having a boost pedal in between the guitar and the amp. It may sound good but that should not be were we start.

IK makes the interface and the plugin. They should be modeling all the amps assuming the same input level and the should recommend a interface gain that results in transparent guitar-to-plugin behavior. Turning the gain up until right before clipping (recommended in AXE I/O One manual) is way too much gain and makes almost every amp super overdriven. That is a fine recommendation for a microphone but not a amp model.

I'm glad to see this topic getting some traction on forums and in YouTube videos. Turning the interface gain down makes the amp model sound much more accurate. Even from a business standpoint, I think IK customers would be more satisfied if all the amps didn't sound so overdriven, and sounded like the real thing with a guitar plugged straight into it.

And to be clear, there is no right or wrong way if you like the sound, but we should be starting from a point where the model is replicating the real thing (accurate). Tweak from there however you like.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby tzurby » Wed Jan 24, 2024 8:03 am

rstubes wrote:Having the interface gain too high is like having a boost pedal in between the guitar and the amp. It may sound good but that should not be were we start.

...
IK makes the interface and the plugin. They should be modeling all the amps assuming the same input level and the should recommend a interface gain that results in transparent guitar-to-plugin behavior. Turning the gain up until right before clipping (recommended in AXE I/O One manual) is way too much gain and makes almost every amp super overdriven. That is a fine recommendation for a microphone but not a amp model.

... Turning the interface gain down makes the amp model sound much more accurate. Even from a business standpoint, I think IK customers would be more satisfied if all the amps didn't sound so overdriven, and sounded like the real thing with a guitar plugged straight into it.

...we should be starting from a point where the model is replicating the real thing (accurate)...


To the point! Thanks.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby jjguitar » Wed Jan 24, 2024 8:38 pm

Read this post

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there´s a list how to set the input gain for the various models. It´s very helpful for getting the right gain structure.
Most important:
Leave the input gain on your audio interface at 0 (zero) and adjust the input level in Amplitube.
Look at your audio interface manual for MAXIMUM INPUT LEVEL: ( for example mine has +12 dBu (@0dBFs) )
You can ask user "Matthias Mueller" how to adjust the input level in Amplitube for your audio interface.

Here´s the list:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hrp ... ue&sd=true

Hope this helps
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby tzurby » Fri Jan 26, 2024 8:40 am

Yes, I know this list. And many thanks to those who took the effort to make it.

I had this is mind when I wrote my comment: It's IK Multimedia's job to give us such a list, comprehensive and without any guesswork.

For example. I mostly use the Red Pig. Now, is it -12? Or something else? What is the correct value? It should be zero for all the amps! So, such a list would just be a provisional measure before some thorough revision.

[mod redacted - unnecessary and please review the rules. You suggestions have been relayed to the team]
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby Pinthar » Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:43 am

It's nice to see this so fresh. I also keep my input gain on my AXE I/O at "tickling the red." Rhett's video gave me a new perspective. When I get home tonight, I will try the gain on the AXE I/O (AI) at zero and then see what happens. I imagine that I will have to have a little gain on the AI. In addition, I usually play heavy distortion, so in Rhett's video, I can see why its never been a preblem for him until he tried to match the amps. Personally I drive the input gain pretty hard, even though I already know to let the amp do all the work, and not the interface. Just my two cents. It hasn't been a problem with my NDSP sims either, they always sound great even with my input gain maxed to red. I guess it's time to start playing nice.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby Matthias Mueller » Wed Jan 31, 2024 2:18 pm

Pinthar wrote:It's nice to see this so fresh. I also keep my input gain on my AXE I/O at "tickling the red." Rhett's video gave me a new perspective. When I get home tonight, I will try the gain on the AXE I/O (AI) at zero and then see what happens. I imagine that I will have to have a little gain on the AI. In addition, I usually play heavy distortion, so in Rhett's video, I can see why its never been a preblem for him until he tried to match the amps. Personally I drive the input gain pretty hard, even though I already know to let the amp do all the work, and not the interface. Just my two cents. It hasn't been a problem with my NDSP sims either, they always sound great even with my input gain maxed to red. I guess it's time to start playing nice.


It wont work if you just turn down the interface input.
Please read the link posted above:

tzurby wrote: here: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... t.2491757/


or watch my video on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im82KE-UHTA&t=40s

When you understand how it works, you can also use my tonenet presets (type in your interface headroom +0,8 on the input slider-> save them as your own -> use them as your new starting points)
https://www.tone.net/amplitube/users/matthias
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby carlaz » Fri Feb 02, 2024 1:31 am

Matthias Mueller wrote:Please read the link posted above:
tzurby wrote: here: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... t.2491757/

or watch my video on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im82KE-UHTA&t=40s
When you understand how it works, you can also use my tonenet presets (type in your interface headroom +0,8 on the input slider-> save them as your own -> use them as your new starting points)
https://www.tone.net/amplitube/users/matthias


Having now watched Matthias's video, as well as a bunch of YouTube videos from other people (Ed S, Rhett Shull, John Nathan Cordy, etc.), this issue now seems so logically obvious that I can hardly believe I never gave it much thought before. :oops: Perhaps it's not least because I have no examples of real, hardware amps to try alongside the software models that are intended to emulate them. :lol: But, also, like many others, I probably just followed the advice that basically all amp-sim plugin manufacturers give to set interface gain just below clipping and never gave any further thought to how unrealistic that might be.

I definitely downloaded Matthias's current "AT5 Amp Input Gain List" document as well as a bunch of his presets. Honestly, this stuff seems to work well, though I have no good sense of how things compare to the corresponding hardware amps, though it does often seem like "related" groups of AmpliTube models tend to share similar "gain offsets", except when given amp models were actually produced in different times in the software's history (e.g., the British Lead S100 (+12) is one of original Hendrix models, along with the "American Vintage" Fender-style models (all +5), while the JH Gold (-12) and the SilverTwelve (+/-0) were later additions in the 2nd-gen Hendrix collection.). Obviously, all the suggested "gain offset" numbers are inevitably derived from a certain amount of guesswork and "feel", but there is enough variation (the suggested +46 fro the BM 30 Gain Boost High :shock: vs. -12 for a number of other models) that one gets the sense that the various AmpliTube models can only have been designed and tested with some variety of different input levels.

Matthias: I do have some questions about your video and your "AT5 Amp Input Gain List" document, if you would be willing to address them. :ugeek:

I did not understand the reason for the added +0,79 dB. What is that?

You do say in the comments to your YouTube video that trying to come up with similar "gain offset values" for the distortion pedals "got really messy and didnt worked out as hoped/expected, so i stopped". Could you -- or would you -- elaborate on that? I presume some of the problem is that, besides the pedal models (like the amp models) having been produced at different times in the software's history, there's also the issue of people basically never using a pedal except in front of an amp, which makes it complicated to guess about what is really happening.

Though perhaps this has something to do with those crazy boost values for the Brian May amp models? As best as I remember, in real life, May always hits those amps with his treble booster, and the hardware version of the "KAT" treble booster pedal that is modeled in AmpliTube does put out 29 to 33 dB of boost, depending on the setting.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby Matthias Mueller » Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:05 am

Hi Carlaz

carlaz wrote:Honestly, this stuff seems to work well, though I have no good sense of how things compare to the corresponding hardware amps


Nice to hear that it works. You can compare to Youtube demos. Just set the amp to the same settings as shown in the demo and compare if its about the same amount of gain. If you don't agree with my suggestion, just change the value for this model to something you think is right ;)

carlaz wrote:though it does often seem like "related" groups of AmpliTube models tend to share similar "gain offsets", except when given amp models were actually produced in different times in the software's history (e.g., the British Lead S100 (+12) is one of original Hendrix models, along with the "American Vintage" Fender-style models (all +5), while the JH Gold (-12) and the SilverTwelve (+/-0) were later additions in the 2nd-gen Hendrix collection.).


Yes there are definitely some "trends" going on for certain packs and release times. But this "trend" also includes that there is nearly always one or two amps that jump out :lol:

The old models (like Brit Lead...) were pretty tricky since they dont react like the real amp at all (in my opinion). Also for some amps it was hard to find a good demo to compare to.

carlaz wrote:Matthias: I do have some questions about your video and your "AT5 Amp Input Gain List" document, if you would be willing to address them. :ugeek:

I did not understand the reason for the added +0,79 dB. What is that?


1 Vp = 0.707 VRMS = -0.79 dBu

Lets say your interface has a max headroom of +12dbu = 0dBFS and is set to min gain.
boost 12db and you will get 0dbu = 0dbfs
boost 12.8db and you will get 1V AC (or Vp) = 0dbfS

I had to choose a startingpoint where everyone can calibrate its interface to and after that everyone is on the same point (but everyone needs different settings to get there...)
I chose 1Vp as my startingpoint since most amp sims use SPICE in a certain way and its typical for spice to work with this calibration.

In the end 0.8db is not much difference in this case. I doubt anyone can hear a difference...

carlaz wrote:You do say in the comments to your YouTube video that trying to come up with similar "gain offset values" for the distortion pedals "got really messy and didnt worked out as hoped/expected, so i stopped". Could you -- or would you -- elaborate on that? I presume some of the problem is that, besides the pedal models (like the amp models) having been produced at different times in the software's history, there's also the issue of people basically never using a pedal except in front of an amp, which makes it complicated to guess about what is really happening.


I don't think i'm able to do this. One reason is what you said. Next reason is that there are some pedals (satch) that are presumably modded versions. And another reason is that i think (at least on some pedals) IK worked with a little "magic" on the output knob, that makes it even more difficult to compare.
And last but not least, to be honest i just dont want to. It should be IK Multimedias job to do this....

My recomendation is to put the pedals after the "1V AC calibration" and before the "amp model gain correction"
A other user said, they compare best to his real 808, DS1, SD1 when they are used around +14dBu = 0dBFS

carlaz wrote:Though perhaps this has something to do with those crazy boost values for the Brian May amp models? As best as I remember, in real life, May always hits those amps with his treble booster, and the hardware version of the "KAT" treble booster pedal that is modeled in AmpliTube does put out 29 to 33 dB of boost, depending on the setting.


The brian may model has a boost switch on the back with on/off and high/low. I guess IK modeled it without any boost activated, so i wanted to iclude this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KOn91gQao
There is not much information on this amp in general but i found this:

Of course, a remote treble booster is a vital part of his sound too, and Vox has included an internal boost circuit that can be switched in and out via the included footswitch. This isn't the same as a simple overdrive pedal, but a design that adds to the basic signal - around 46dB in this case - which is a significant hike in level to say the least.
https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/guitars/vox-brian-may-ac30-25579

+23 for the low boost setting is just a guess i have to say.

But yeah, i think a better way to do this is to add his pedal in front of the amp.
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Re: Correct Input Gain

Postby carlaz » Fri Feb 02, 2024 2:42 pm

Matthias: Many thanks for your helpful response.

Matthias Mueller wrote:Yes there are definitely some "trends" going on for certain packs and release times. But this "trend" also includes that there is nearly always one or two amps that jump out :lol:

Very true! :lol:

Matthias Mueller wrote:1 Vp = 0.707 VRMS = -0.79 dBu

Lets say your interface has a max headroom of +12dbu = 0dBFS and is set to min gain.
boost 12db and you will get 0dbu = 0dbfs
boost 12.8db and you will get 1V AC (or Vp) = 0dbfS

I had to choose a startingpoint where everyone can calibrate its interface to and after that everyone is on the same point (but everyone needs different settings to get there...)
I chose 1Vp as my startingpoint since most amp sims use SPICE in a certain way and its typical for spice to work with this calibration.

In the end 0.8db is not much difference in this case. I doubt anyone can hear a difference...

Probably not! (And the usual gain plugins I use in my DAW don't do increments down to hundredths of a dB anyway. :geek: )

Matthias Mueller wrote:And last but not least, to be honest i just dont want to. It should be IK Multimedias job to do this....

No argument from me, there! Though (at the risk of incurring our beloved revolutionary IKM moderators' wrath :mrgreen: I suspect one reason that IKM hasn't done/doesn't do this is that values for different pieces of gear over time are, in fact, all over the place. :? Assuming that their archives old the necessary production notes, even if they now retroactively adjusted all the values to a common standard in a new release, that would blow up everyone's backward compatibility. It could only realistically be implemented in an "AmpliTube 6" release -- though I would suspect any AT6 release to still be some ways off in the future.

Matthias Mueller wrote:My recomendation is to put the pedals after the "1V AC calibration" and before the "amp model gain correction"
A other user said, they compare best to his real 808, DS1, SD1 when they are used around +14dBu = 0dBFS

OK, yes, I sort of guessed this, based on the way that the pedals and "amp model gain correction" were set up in your presets. I tried this with a couple of different amps and pedals and it certainly sounded fine (although, as usual, I have no idea how "realistic" it might actually be :D ).
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